How to resolve constant blown Caps?

[ImWolf]

MSI K9N Neo MB
AMD Athlon 64 2X 6000+ CPU
8 GB Ram
3X 500 GB HDD (Seagate NTFS), (WD Fat32), Hitachi NTFS/EXT4)
Dual boot Windows XP / Linux Mint 19.3 OS
Sea Sonic SSR-550FX FOCUS Plus 550W

Here I am again with the same issue I've dealt with twice before on two different MSI MB's. Four of the largest Cap's have popped their tops and no OS will boot.

Previously, I had even replaced blown Cap's upping from 6.3V to 10V, but this obviously didn't help much!!! (same uF)

Per someones advice I had also upgraded the PSU last time this happened. Are MSI MB's just cursed or what?

I'm at the point where I would gladly replace this old hardware with something more reliable, but something tells me newer is not really better, and of course my preferred OS doesn't know what to do with the new hardware.

If I need to tear this thing all apart again to replace blown Cap's, then I would at least need to KNOW the replacements are bullet proof. On the other hand, if MSI boards simply are garbage and I need to replace it with something else, then I'll need something that still has all the required XP drivers available.

What's a boy to do?

Thanks,
Wolf

 

[Madeleine Takam]

Regarding motherboards. No idea about MSI. SuperMicro are the ROLEX of motherboards, with price to match. However for all others it tends to be model specific that can have problems.

Although considering all the effort, replacing capacitors may not always be cost efficient. In your case you have already set up your operating system and programs. So there is a good reason to stick with same motherboard and replace Caps.

Regarding PSU’s no idea what you have. I always stick with Antec, couldn’t give much feedback on anything else.

The Best Electrolytic Capacitors are

TEAPO
Rubycon
Chemi-Con
Nichicon
Panasonic

Go for these good brands from a reputable dealer. Not Ali Express or even ebay unless from a well-known dealer.

I remember last time I told you not to go mad on voltage. By “mad on voltage”, I meant not the 63V and over audio quality stuff with ridiculously low ESR

link here:

https://www.xpforums.com/threads/machine-dying-during-boot-or-after-os-loaded.934587/#post-3268271

However, do go for higher voltage. Going from 6.3V to 10V is not really any improvement. I would suggest looking at 24V to 35V minimum.

Obviously the lower ESR the better.

This is a database with the best electrolytic capacitors based on actual testing. Date of article and testing 6 April 2024

https://hwbusters.com/best_picks/the-best-electrolytic-capacitors/

Finally; And this is most important. Motherboards carry 12V on some rails. Therefore, I would always suggest Capacitors over 12V. I would never go less than 24V Electrolytic Capacitors even if I was given them.

 

[ImWolf]

Thanks for that Madeleine. I reviewed the thread from the last time I dealt with this. Like last time, it will probably be a while before I get this resolved. Wish someone had suggested going with at least 24V previously.... might have saved me from a repeat performance.

Wolf

 

[Madeleine Takam]

Thanks for that Madeleine. I reviewed the thread from the last time I dealt with this. Like last time, it will probably be a while before I get this resolved. Wish someone had suggested going with at least 24V previously.... might have saved me from a repeat performance.

Wolf

Sorry about that Wolf.

You didn’t say what Voltage you had bought until this latest post; I just assumed you would go for a good mid-range of at least 16V or higher. We are talking pennies difference between a 6.3V and a 16V. I said go for a higher voltage, match the physical size, match the uF and if you can get lower ESR for a good price go for it.

Regarding electronics. Specifically, motherboards and their voltages. They run on 3 voltages 3.3V, 5V and 12V however the reality is these voltages are wishful thinking. It is very common to see greater voltages on all 3 rails. It is not uncommon to see 14.5V on the 12V rail. Or 5.5V on the 5V rail.

Low Voltage Capacitors come in many voltages. These are the voltages from just TDK 3, 6.3, 10, 12, 15, 16, 24, 30, 50, 35, 40, 63, 70, 100. The voltage rating is just an upper limit, which must never be exceeded in a functional circuit. Replacing a capacitor with something that has a higher voltage rating is always safe. And everyone always goes for much higher voltages if they have to go to the effort of replacing CAPs. There is only ever one real problem with going higher voltage and that is physical size, but you should find same physical size up to 63V. And size was the only reason I told you not to go mad.

So, one needs to apply common sense. 6.3 is only a little bit of leeway above a possible 5.5 rail. And we know your capacitors have blown for some reason. Could just be a peak, or it could be, they are being hit with up to 14.5 volts. Now a very common voltage on Electrolytic Capacitors is 16V. So, a reasonable assumption would be to go for those 16V. But it is only just above the 14.5 possible, so let’s err on the side of caution and go for 24V.

Hope this helps

Madeleine

 

[ImWolf]

Madeleine, I could have (maybe should have) reworded that previous post to include I wish I had asked more Q's about the voltage. For many, including still myself, putting a 24V Cap on a 5V rail does seem a bit overkill. Anyway, that's water under the bridge now.

Still haven't torn things apart here, but the previous Cap's I bought are 8mm Dia. x 21mm Long w/ a 3mm Pin spacing. Some of the blown Cap's are so close together that I don't think I can go bigger on diameter, and from a quick search I did last night capacitors higher than 10V have a different form factor. 16V = 10 x 24 x 4.5, and increasing values from there.

I'll know more when I have time to tear into it.

Thanks,
Wolf

 

[Madeleine Takam]

Madeleine, I could have (maybe should have) reworded that previous post to include I wish I had asked more Q's about the voltage. For many, including still myself, putting a 24V Cap on a 5V rail does seem a bit overkill. Anyway, that's water under the bridge now.

Still haven't torn things apart here, but the previous Cap's I bought are 8mm Dia. x 21mm Long w/ a 3mm Pin spacing. Some of the blown Cap's are so close together that I don't think I can go bigger on diameter, and from a quick search I did last night capacitors higher than 10V have a different form factor. 16V = 10 x 24 x 4.5, and increasing values from there.

I'll know more when I have time to tear into it.

Thanks,
Wolf

Hi Wolf

I understand your concern about a larger diameter. It might be hard to get a good quality CAP under 12mm. It is one of those irritating problems that we are faced with when dealing with Motherboards. However, we are humans with initiative, intellect and opposable thumbs. We shall not be beaten by small electronic components.

Plan of Attack.

1. Once you have removed your motherboard. Check using the Continuity Mode on your multimeter, if the Capacitor is on the 12V rail. Below is the Pin layout from your PSU, it will correspond to your motherboard sockets.

1. If it is only seeing 5V – 5.5V you can try the gamble of getting a good quality CAP in the 10V range with a diameter of only 8mm. However, I have provided the Panasonic Capacitor Spec sheet as an attachment. Please note that for a good quality Electrolytic Capacitor anything over 6.3V to 100V is in the 12.5mm range of diameter; For Panasonic anyway.
2. What I would do is get the nicest, best quality Capacitor; And then use ingenuity. See below - where I show an 8mm next to a 12.5mm. I then adapt the 12.5mm so that it can fit in the space of an 8mm.

Now it doesn’t matter what size comes in the post, you are ready to tackle it.

Please note the Voltage used on a good quality motherboard, in this case an ancient dusty SuperMicro board. (It’s the only one I had sitting under the desk) For some reason they think its worth the expense of using 25V Electrolytic Capacitors on a board, that supposedly will never see over 12V. BELOW.

All the best

Madeleine

 

[ImWolf]

Madeleine,

Now that things are torn apart, all is not as I previously assumed. The blown Cap's are all 1000 uF 16V. One of these (brown) had already been replaced once. The other 1800 uF 10V Cap's are all still good. Those 4 blown capacitors appear to be the only 16V type on the MB.

I was also able to more accurately measure things on the backside of the MB. The pin spacing is 3.5mm, and the two closest capacitors have a Ctr. to Ctr. space of 10.5mm. So, that would be the largest replacement Dia. I could use unless I start bending leads or doing some other "adjustment". Those blown capacitors are 8mm Dia. x 20mm Long.

BTW, while I was looking at what was available the other night I came across an article where the author claimed that having too much length of leads on capacitors (to the connection point) reduces their performance, so I'm not sure what you had in mind with soldering lengths of wire onto those capacitor leads. Were you suggesting one could solder the wire ends into the MB and just leave the capacitor dangling free?

Thanks for the attachment, but it doesn't make much sense to me. I would rather see a chart (product ad) that states the capacitor dimensions, impedance, voltage, and pin spacing. If you think you could point me to a decent product to replace the above without buying 200 of them, that would be appreciated. :b

Wolf

 

[ImWolf]

Oops.... not impendance...... capacitance.

Why can I edit this post, but not the previous ones?

 

[Madeleine Takam]

Oops.... not impendance...... capacitance.

Why can I edit this post, but not the previous ones?

The product sheet I attached. has exact and precise Dimensions for every single capacitor.

You have plenty of space on that board, bend the legs. That’s what everyone else does.

No one leaves capacitors dangling free. Double sided tape is what everyone else uses.

Regarding lengths of legs and leads on a capacitor – does it matter. NO, not in this application at these values (Maybe in High End Audio applications it effects the ESR). Looking at your Motherboard, you will only need to bend the legs on decent quality 12.5mm capacitors. You have plenty of space. Capacitors do not need to sit flush with the board. They just need to be in the correct polarity.

OR, are you intending to remove all the fans and sound card and turn this motherboard into a high end audio output device to a USB High End DAC.

Ignore people on Reddit, who don’t even own a soldering iron, a capacitance meter, an oscilloscope, nor a signal generator. If you would like to seek further advice, go to audio repair forums. By people who know what they are doing.

Buy a decent brand name capacitor from a reputable seller. It does not matter that it is oversized it will fit if you bend the leads.

 

[Mr Siamese Cat]

Oops.... not impendance...... capacitance.

Why can I edit this post, but not the previous ones?

1000uf electrolytic capacitors are really common and very easy to find good quality ones from good manufacturers. I would suggest replacing with branded names, as Madeleine has advised. Looking at the photo’s you have provided of your MB, there is plenty of space. Bending the legs on electrolytic capacitors is not a problem, neither is legs of a few extra millimeters.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/30452989...LhzhHchg9KmC5OcCfDZzZLIwQw|tkp:Bk9SR47ngZzRZA

 

[ImWolf]

Thanks for that Mr. Cat... I did order some Nichicon caps of a higher voltage with the wrong pin spacing, so I will be bending one of the leads to fit the hole spacing on the MB.

 

[ImWolf]

BTW, I need to bend one lead so I end up with about 3.5mm spacing instead of the MFG 5mm. How many times have you guys tried to bend leads like this and ended up breaking it off?

 

[Madeleine Takam]

BTW, I need to bend one lead so I end up with about 3.5mm spacing instead of the MFG 5mm. How many times have you guys tried to bend leads like this and ended up breaking it off?

View attachment 1495

Use a gentler bend. I have soldered in hundred of capacitors in my life and have never broken one. If I am soldering to a circuit board and it is tight I just push the leads in (In the correct polarity) till they won’t go any more or it looks tidy, then cut the excess wire off from the back of the circuit board. However, if you are doing a surface solder then the same rules apply. In the end, bend both legs a bit, rather than one leg a lot.

 

[ImWolf]

Replacement caps finally got here and the system is back together.... thanks for the input everyone.

Another little question regarding cooling fans. (maybe should be in a separate thread?) I had ordered some replacement 3-pin fans, but didn't look at the auction page close enough. The wires are connected to the little Molex plug in the wrong arrangement. Apparently the fans were intended for use with some sort of Westinghouse product, but the seller did state that the wires can be "moved to accommodate PC cooling".

So, before I start cutting wires and soldering, have you folks ever re-arranged wires on these little plugs? Are they held in with some sort of spring clamp?

Thanks,
Wolf

 

[Madeleine Takam]

Replacement caps finally got here and the system is back together.... thanks for the input everyone.

Another little question regarding cooling fans. (maybe should be in a separate thread?) I had ordered some replacement 3-pin fans, but didn't look at the auction page close enough. The wires are connected to the little Molex plug in the wrong arrangement. Apparently the fans were intended for use with some sort of Westinghouse product, but the seller did state that the wires can be "moved to accommodate PC cooling".

So, before I start cutting wires and soldering, have you folks ever re-arranged wires on these little plugs? Are they held in with some sort of spring clamp?

Thanks,
Wolf

View attachment 1496

Tweezer, razorblade, switch knife, or needle are useful tools. Usually takes about 25 seconds.

There are loads of videos on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G7iIwfuaJ8

This is also a useful skill when making antitank missiles safe, hot-wiring a car, disabling an alarm system, or deactivating a nuclear bomb.

I would suggest joining the local Ladies Church Crocheting and Knitting Club. They teach all these skills along with handling AK47’s, using household items to make explosives and ham radio.

 

[ImWolf]

Yeah.... a few minutes after my previous post I took a look at it under my nuclear powered magnifier and saw how simple it actually was. Much easier than some of the older plugs. Forgot to come back here though and delete that question. Sorry about that.... I could have saved you 4 hours of brainstorming.

Just my opinion, but I would not recommend anyone even consider toying with explosives or firearms unless they're sober. And anyone seeking a "church lady" for advice... well, heaven help you with that.

But thanks just the same....
Wolf